For the Canadian aviation industry, and for Avro Canada in particular, the traumatic story of the Avro Canada
CF-105 was paralleled by that of the contemporary British Aircraft Corporation TSR.2 in the UK. Both were destroyed by politicians who,.in 1957, were convinced that missile technology had advanced to a stage when manned interceptor aircraft would no longer be needed. The first stages of development of a new two-seat all-weather long-range interceptor for the RCAF began in early 1953, at the time when the RCAF was busy forming its first CF-100 squadron. This was not an action that represented dissatisfaction with the capability of the CF-100, but showed an appreciation of the fact that something like a decade was needed to get a new high-performance interceptor/weapons-system into squadron service. Avro's design team tackled the new and demanding task with great enthusiasm, with the result that by April 1954 the company was involved in the manufacture of the first five Arrow 1 prototypes. The name derived from the aircraft's delta wing, set high on the fuselage. This had a sharp needle-nose, widening just aft of the cockpit, where intakes on each side of the fuselage fed air to two turbojet engines mounted side by side within the fuselage. The Arrow 1s were powered by two Pratt & Whitney J75s, but it was intended that the following Arrow 2s would have engines of indigenous design and manufacture, in the form of PS-13 Iroquois turbojets, developed by Avro's Orenda engine division, each of which promised a thrust of 12700kg with maximum reheat.
The first of the Arrow 1 prototypes made its maiden flight on 25 March 1958, and all five of this version were being used for development and testing when the entire programme was cancelled on 20 February 1959. A final bitter edict was to ensure destruction of the five Arrow 1s, one unflown Arrow 2, and four almost complete Arrow 2s. Armament of this latter version was to have comprised eight Sparrow air-to-air missiles carried in an internal weapons bay.
leo, I believe you mean Robert Coates, not Barney Danson. Also, Walter Dinsdale, one of DIEF's cabinet ministers. was the Mosquito pilot who won the DFC. Hamilton was a decorated navigator.
"Just give me that ol' time 250,000 Mossie fighter.."
You may have something there,Leo. Almost all of the Cabinet ahds served in WW2, & Alvin Hamilton, one of the arrow's opponents, was an ex Mosquito pilot( DFC & all, a good one).
Anyway, the Mosquito started out as a private venture. Perhaps the decision was made by 'four turrent minds'. be sure to read Arthur Haileys' 'In high places'
Let's examine Ed Heinemann's record at managing the creation of revolutionary jet engines, beyond state of the art radar /fire control systems and AA missiles that track and destroy..............And let's list all the government official in history who were not just politicos..Barney Danson (seen in a german strip club and axed)....Stew takes time, steak takes money, the Arrow needed both. Our competent government ordered Bomarc missiles, which didn't work and required nuclear warheads which we would not use. It's a good thing manned fighters are obsolete, and the bombers will always get through. Maybe if it had a 4-gun turret.
I've just had an epiphany! The head of Avro Canada, Crawford Gordon, was appointed during a Liberal regime. In a meeting with the Conservative Prime Minister John Diefenbaker, just before the axe fell, he was argumentative, arrogant and abusive. All the cost projections, performance estimates and statistics don't amount to a hill of beans if you're obnoxious, right? Barry? right, Reg? You guys are great! It never was about the plane. It was all about character, inter-personal relationships, the brotherhood of man. Reason. Sanity. Pax vobiscum.
03.04.2009. I have tried to correct you on what a troll is, but you refuse to be educated. On any subject. I would suggest you seek a caregiver for yourself. You seem to be uncommonly trapped in a self-serving fantasy.
**** Fromthe Toronto Globe & Mail, 1998:
That the cost of the Arrow spiralled out of control is a matter of record: to $9 million per aircraft from $1.5 million within a period of five years.******
Or 12M, or 16M, dependent on the fantasy...
*** As for the F-101 McDonnell Voodoo fighters (which the Royal Canadian Air Force acquired in 1961) being "barely capable of breaking the sound barrier," that plane already held the world speed record of 1.83 times the speed of sound.******
Very few fans of the Arrow are ignorant enough to make that claim about the 101, and it would not be capable of that speed for anywhere near the distance of the Arrow.
****** And it is not very likely that the CIA was nervous about the prospect of a foreign aircraft outperforming its top secret U2 spy plane. This high-altitude, subsonic reconnaissance aircraft bore no relation whatever to a supersonic fighter.************
Proving he was smoking something not really legal. The threat to the U2 was in blowing it out of the sky, referencing it being 'outperformed", is frankly weird. **** Julius Lukasiewicz Professor, mechanical and aerospace engineering, Carleton University,
The rest of his post is as useless... snipped for brevity.
Avro proposed an aircraft with a delta wing planform and the DND responded with a specification for a 2g turn at altitude. There is no way that any delta could ever turn like that and the DND knew it. So, if the DND did not want want the aircraft then who did?
After producing a documentary on the demise of the Arrow and numerous tv news stories on the subject for both CTV and Global Television, for which I conducted many interviews with former AVRO employees including Jim Floyd, John Sandford and the late John Diefenbaker, the Prime Minister who made the cancellation in 1959, one thing is abundantly clear, the Americans didn't kill the Arrow, we did it all by ourselves. Two factors stand out, the RCAF made constant design and performance changes which drove the price per aircraft through the roof. Originally to be designed in stages, the Mark 1 with Canadian airframe, American engines and weapons systems and British avionics. The Mark 2 was to have Canadian airframe, Canadian engines(Iroquois2)Canadian avionics(Marconi Montreal)and American weapons systems. The Mark 3, Canadian airframe, Canadian engines(Iroquois 3), Canadian avionics and Canadian weapons systems (housed in a retractable weapons bay with eight Sparrow missles, capable of lowering, firing a missle and retracting within four seconds during flight). The RCAF wanted everything at once. The second factor not widely know is that when AVRO Canada president Crawford Gordon went to Ottawa to meet with Diefenbaker to dicuss the mounting cost overruns, he was told not to swear, smoke or drink in front of the Prime Minister. Gordon who sources say felt that Diefenbaker was a country bumpkin who knew nothing about aircraft, ignored the cautionary advice. When he met with Diefenbaker he smelled of booze, swore like a trooper and blew cigar smoke in the Prime Minister's face! This coupled with bad information about the capabilities of the BOMARC missle and the Arrow's fate was sealed. The American's for their part, weren't interested in buying the Arrow because they build their own (The Martin Canberra bomber and McDonnell Douglas Harrier are the only exceptions) but they bent over backwards trying to help us develop it...wind tunnel testing, the loan of a B-47 test bed for the Iroquois engine etc. It was in their best interest to have an ally that could produced its own supersonic interceptor for its air force to adequately share North American air defence in order to cut American costs and responsibilities. I have no doubt that had the Arrow been produced and placed into service with the natural progression of models over a period of time, versions of it would still be flying today. But such is not the case and many countries have made similar mistakes when cancellation decision are based on bad information..look no further than the BAC TSR-2 .
Bill Trbovich Communications Director International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers
It wasn't the U2,but the A11 thru SR71 just undergoing development. The Avro Malton facility did attract it's share of soviet spies and although they may have been drawn to the shepherds pie they used to serve at the Avro cafeteria (they used real shepherds)(those Germans make good stuff) The technologies in the building were cutting edge. The Soviets may or may not have known about the A11 /A12 but the americans did. I've met Soviets looking for technologies myself. Sold out my country for some gold pins. How much money did the government spend to cancel that helicopter program? I've just been reading about some aircraft systems that have been built and cancelled in the last few years and the prices. The biggest problem was that the aircraft was considered as airframe, engines, radar /fire control & missiles all in one. Don't get me started.
The Voodoo in no way matched the specifications to which the Arrow was designed. It was a previous generation design. Canada isn't a big superpower like Sweden. Apparently, JAS39 Gripens are selling to other countries even in the face of U.S. urging to get F16's. And the U.S. does know how to urge.
That the cost of the Arrow spiralled out of control is a matter of record: to $9 million per aircraft from $1.5 million within a period of five years. As for the F-101 McDonnell Voodoo fighters (which the Royal Canadian Air Force acquired in 1961) being "barely capable of breaking the sound barrier," that plane already held the world speed record of 1.83 times the speed of sound. And it is not very likely that the CIA was nervous about the prospect of a foreign aircraft outperforming its top secret U2 spy plane. This high-altitude, subsonic reconnaissance aircraft bore no relation whatever to a supersonic fighter. I never heard my National Research Council colleagues predict that the Arrow would not achieve supersonic speed, as recalled by former Avro engineer James Floyd. But in any event, it was not the performance of the aircraft that is significant; the Arrow was doomed for other reasons. The unrealistic notion of an independent role for the RCAF in the defence of North America yielded a specification for a complex and expensive weapon system for a national market too small to support the necessary research and development. The success of Canada's aeronautical design - from Pratt and Whitney engines, de Havilland Beavers and Dashes, and Canadair jets - can be seen in the skies of many countries; there is no need to invoke the Arrow episode to prove it. Julius Lukasiewicz Professor, mechanical and aerospace engineering, Carleton University, Ottawa
Wow.No oversight on this little Peyton Place. Personalities aside,the Arrow airframe was superb, the engines promised but did not yet deliver and the radar / fire control system was exxxtreemely expensive and not yet finished and air to air missiles were not worth dog-do at the time. The Phantom had identical air intakes and used a Radar /fire control system that came from the same manufacturer. It was very cheap, development already paid for. Politics always exist. The TSR2 cancellaton as well as the Hawker P1154 supersonic Harrier are gone.North American F-107, they took that hard, rightly so. The Arrow was replaced by Bomarcs that had to have nukes to work, blowing up in Canadian skies. The Voodoos came after somebody noticed that we had nothing but useless and unproven Bomarcs with empty warheads. There is more to every conspiracy than meets the eye. And Sometimes, people are just dumb. I have in my room a 20x28 2-view, the plastic model and a framed photo signed by Zura...and my dreams.
Again, the lack of respect you show for this web site, and those who created it, is utterly amazing. This is not the place for your rants and raving….
***** The nice part about being' trolled by Mr. Fortier', Jack Lalonde, is quoting him verbatim from his 'blog sites'.**** ****** You appear to be a senior, not familiar with the internet… I use my name, not a handle, and only reply to your errors. That is not a troll. And you do not quote verbatim. You cut and post, drop sections, smear two posts on two different subjects together. Rather a sad effort on your part.
***** From Barry's Amazon blog:****
I do not have a blog. You obviously do not know what the term means.
This is a book review site. Where people who read books (you might try it…) comment on them, and debate others over their merits.
*****Barry Fortier says: ""Not a valid comment, but I would expect nothing more or less from you, based on your own efforts at reviews. The desciptive terms used, are without exception accurate, and justified as they describe very well, the non-reviews I am referring to. Your own efforts, such as: …."( quoted name of opponent removed here…") ……may have been run through a spell checker, but it is just as absurd and hysterical as the other rants that also contain errors in spelling, logic, and fact. ""
No info, just more rant. & one spelling error. 'Desciptive', Mr. Fortier? Yawn. 'nuff said. *******
The actual post:
Not a valid comment, but I would expect nothing more or less from you, based on your own efforts at reviews. The desciptive terms used, are without exception accurate, and justified as they describe very well, the non-reviews I am referring to. Your own efforts, such as: "At this point, denying the probable consequences of rapid anthropogenic climate change is an act of social irresponsibility verging on a crime against humanity, especially the humanity fo our children." may have been run through a spell checker, but it is just as absurd and hysterical as the other rants that also contain errors in spelling, logic, and fact.
Again, you did not remove a name of an opponent, as you falsely claim to, but instead remove the outlandish claim made by someone who doesn't even post under his own name. Almost a troll, if you will. As for the occasional typo.. that is the only contest you could possibly win.
The nice part about being' trolled by Mr. Fortier', Jack Lalonde, is quoting him verbatim from his 'blog sites'.
From Barry's Amazon blog: www.amazon.com /gp /pdp /profile /A26NNDWZV3TR4T
Barry Fortier says: ""Not a valid comment, but I would expect nothing more or less from you, based on your own efforts at reviews. The desciptive terms used, are without exception accurate, and justified as they describe very well, the non-reviews I am referring to. Your own efforts, such as: …."( quoted name of opponent removed here…") ……may have been run through a spell checker, but it is just as absurd and hysterical as the other rants that also contain errors in spelling, logic, and fact. ""
No info, just more rant. & one spelling error. 'Desciptive', Mr. Fortier? Yawn. 'nuff said.
Wayne, regarding the Arrow being capable of supercruise, it very probably would have been... The issue is somewhat more complicated then just massive thrust possible from the ps-13.. Engine efficiency, ram effect and a couple of other points would be added to the mix. NOT the most common topic of debate, though one of the more interesting ones.
Lalonds comment on the b-58 is nonsense. Time frame, mission, etc. Nothing in common. As for Reg lying through his teeth about ***"With all deference to Barry Fortier, he did barrage me, & the Calgary Herald, with emails after my March 2008 editorial. Having read his on line debates, this inbound mail was auto deleted.Sorry, Barry- it wasn't personal.****
No suprise there. Not one single email was sent to the herald, or to this poor druggie, reg. I wouldn't waste my time trying to get through to him. As for his claims of being "published", his efforts are in the range of letters to the editor, but only if they happened to have been scrawled in crayon.
Reg, I do not lie about you, and you would do well not to lie about me. As for your 'editorial' in the herald in 2008, lets face it.
You were taken apart and made a fool of by others, so I didn't even bother to send in a letter to add to your humiliation.
And for your constant reference to insinger, his thesis is not superb, it would only have been accepted from someone with a level of knowledge, at about your own level.
As for scrapping the Arrow, no, it was NOT standard policy, as the f-107, skylancer, and other aircraft also cancelled would more than amply prove. There was a commercial offer for airframes and parts, that would have massively dwarfed the amount paid for scrap metal, and you trying to pretend otherwise, is about average for your efforts.
scaa.usask.ca /gallery /arrow /thesis /thesis9.htm Insinger , chapter three …."The six existing Arrows were offered to the NAE, NACA, and the RAE for research purposes, but they were rejected because it was deemed simply too expensive to keep such a small number of aircraft flying. These six Arrows and thirty-one others in various stages of completion on the assembly line were stripped of all classified material and scrapped by DDP, not out of Diefenbaker's vindictiveness as "Arrowheads" have often claimed, but simply due to bureaucratic standard operating procedure for reasons of national security and - on a very small scale - partial cost-recovery.153 …"
This supports Jack Lalonde's theory.
Derek, Insingers superb thesis is on line. I would sound out your teacher's view's . good luck,& best writing!
