Douglas C-133 Cargomaster

Col Bob McCartney, e-mail, 27.03.2010 13:30 Was one of the first 5 C-124 First Pilots transferred from Dover squadrons to the 39th ATS C-133A squadron at Dover, Delaware in 1957. All of us loved the aircraft - and probably still do. Firstly, it had a crew of five (P, CP, Nav, Systems Engineer, and, don't forget, the Loadmaster - he did all the heavy work, and was given no crew rest on trips, because he got "crew rest" in flight. If you have ever spent time in the cabin in flight, you would know that it is super noisy, cold, and vibrated. When first operational, all the Colonels (and up) flew in the crew compartment, while we Second Pilots (CPs) spent many an hour during trips on the ramp at the tail-end of the cabin. RHIP. Although I have many stories about that beautiful aircraft, I can say, that I ended up feathering more props than in all my other aircraft put together. I can say, too, that it flew well on two engines (two were in fixed pitch when I descended to land at Dover when returning from Lajes. I lost that second engine at the outer marker, which was good since we were in essence, gliding to some degree anyway. The other time of note, was when flying transition (IP was Billy D. Emerick), as we left the ground, there was a large explosive noise, and all four fire lights illumionated. We landed back on the (shorter) runway, and the ground crews took care to the aircraft - smoke coming out of the wingtips, for example. The reaso9n, was a collapsed tailpipe which vectored hot gasses up into the crawlway. Fun, when you remember that prop wiring and fuel tank walls were in that crawlway. All in all, the C-133 was a crew delight to fly. It was underpowered (Douglas designed it to carry the Atlas missile, etc.), and had asked for 10,000 HP engines. We all were told, that the Air Force, in its ever-ending quest to save money, decided to use the T34-P7W engines that the U.S. Navy had "in stock"> The problem was, that the engines were 5000 HP (before many upgrades) engines. Consequently, our operational ceiling with any kind of a load in summer, was about 13,000 feet. Not good for a turbo-prop's fuel consumption. You old crewmembers - do you remember those 2000' foot climbs every two hours so you could get past the go-no go point on your trips? It still is a beautiflu aircraft. I send this in memory of 1Lt Ted Palisch, who was killed in Delaware in the aircraft's first crash. He had "bumped" me off that flight (local transition). Bob reply

Jim Zeitler, e-mail, 31.08.2010 09:10 I was at Dover in 64 & 65. We had a C133 that had defective skin. It was prone to corrode very easily. We painted is grey. The paint changed the weight of the acft quite a lot. She was nicknamed the "Gray Ghost". She was a great bird. She did all of the stunts for airshows. She stood out. We had one taxi out one day and did all of the required checks at the end of the runway. They then taxi'd out and took the active. Engines up brakes off, takeoff roll. Liftoff point and speed. Yokes won't move.Pilot and Co-Pilot both pulling, feet against the footrests , no good. By the time they figured out she wasn't going to fly and both slammed on brakes, they took the barriet and cables and chains wrapped and whipped around in the wheel wells and took out wiring bundles, brake lines etc. She ended up of the end of the runway, sunk to her belly in mud. It believe it took 3 big Euclids to pull her out. Well the next day we were told to assemble in the shop, all shifts, off duty or not. Display our tools on work tables and be prepared for inspection. This was when the tool CTK progrm first began. The Chief of maintenance came in to the shop and began inspecting our tools. On purpose he did every box, saving the problem box for last. Letting us sweat. When he got to that box, he asked the two striper where his 1" x 1-1 /8th box wrench was. I don't know sir was the reply. The colonel pulled the wrench out from behind his back an handed it to the airman. Is that yours'? Why yessir it is, look there are my initials.(smarter than the average toad. All that was to be on the tools was the CTK number. It seems that the airman had it on board the aircraft when it wasn't needed for the job, but he "was using it as a hammer sir." He had left it on the aircraft laying above the bellcrank for the yokes. When they did their runnup and released the brakes it fell right in the wrong place and locked the yokes. He put his tools in the tool box and left it on the table. He left with the Colonel. We never heard what they did with him. Quite a day. reply

CMSgt Sandy Sandstrom, e-mail, 05.02.2010 20:31 I was stationed at Dover and flew the C-133 from 1960 to 1971, with time out for a Viet Nam tour. I accumulated 7500 hours and had many experiences. In regards to stall, a stall warning indicator was installed which was used as a secondary indicator. As one approached a power-on stall, the first indication of the stall was the windshield wipers. They began to shake. I saw this more than once and I flew all of the test flights with Benefield when we were trying to figure out what happened to the airplanes. Best guess, the right wing quit flying, hence the reason for the stall strip installed just outboard of no. 1. This caused the nose to fall straight through. reply

Pat Leeds, e-mail, 04.02.2010 05:36 I was a Loadmaster with the 84th ATS at Travis from 1958 – 1961. Logged about 1,100 C-133 hours and had a few frightful moments. Had the privilege of being the L /M on the test flight carrying the first Minuteman missile around Seattle's Boeing field. Air Force made a training film of us loading the missile. I was the L /M on C-133A 1614 from Travis to Hickam…crew that picked it up and took it to Tachikawa was lost on return from Tachi. Never determined cause but during the investigation everything from sabotage, prop separation, stall , to electrical spark caused explosion from a radio relay switch near the center fuel cell were discussed. I knew them all and the fact that no recovery except for bits and pieces of wreckage made it worse. Anyway enjoyed very much the time I spent in the squadron and will never forget the friendships that I made. I also would highly recommend Cal Taylor's book on the C-133. I contributed a few of the photos. I'd very much like to hear from any of my fellow crew members. reply

Neil G. Lewis, e-mail, 20.01.2010 06:56 1st ATS /MAS from May 1963-May 1970. Navigator. Flew with all the guys mentioned previously from the 1st. It scared the fool out of you sometimes but I would fly in it again without hesitating. reply

Robert W Houston, e-mail, 11.01.2010 21:52 I am proud to say I was part of the ground crew on C-133A Model 54-0142 from 1963 thru 1964 at Dover,also when all aircraft were grounded or red X ed, because of a crash. Tail Number 2008 was sent to Wright-Patterson for an inspection like no other. It was the only aircraft allowed to fly at the time I worked on this crew for Months. I am itrigued by some of the comments here? reply

Joe Moraine, e-mail, 04.01.2010 16:40 I flew the C-133A in the 39th MAS at Dover from early 1966 to early 1970, accumulating nearly 3500 hours in the airplane. Some of the information you read on here is not entirely accurate. I would highly recommend Cal Taylor's excellent book on this airplane for highly factual information and good reading. "Remembering an Unsung Giant: The Douglas C-133 Cargomaster and Its People" is the definitive book on the C-133. reply

Gary Peterson, e-mail, 16.12.2009 01:47 I was working in a communications facility at Travis and had just stepped into the back yard and noticed a C-133B making approaches. Just prior to the crash I saw the plane approaching one of the large power lines suspended between two towers. My initial thought was that he hit the power line and the aircraft stopped dead in the air at that second and then crashed to the ground. Very tragic. I haven't heard mention of the power lines or towers so thought I would share. reply

Donald Taylor, e-mail, 17.11.2009 00:51 I flew with the 1st ATS at Dover from early 1962 till late 1965. I was an FE with about 4000 hours in the airplane. I flew the A /C into Wake that was lost. I also flew two others that were lost at sea off the coast of Delaware, most people said don't fly anything Don has, cause it's wore out. I had a bunch of other problems, lost a prop in flight, large crack down the right side of the fuselage, I enjoyed the time in so many different countries. A run to Libya and on down to the Congo was interesting. The runs to VN were hard to do. I left Dover for Tinker and the C-141 then to Altus with the C-5 program, retiring in 1975 at Kelly AFB in C-5 Flight Test.I loved my 26 years. Wished I could do it again. reply

Richard D Davis, e-mail, 15.08.2009 03:39 I was the Maintenance ground crew's crew chief and had done the Pre-Flight inspection on '523', the C-133B being considered here. It was at shift change, and my newest team member was on board for the scheduled trip. I was waiting at the flight line office for the plane to make its first touch and go when we were informed that '523' had crashed and was burning in the swamp near the end of the runway. Not official, of course, but we were under the impression that the pilot had cut the turn too wide, and had to make a second run for it. Our understanding was that he had apparently lifted too steeply and the aircraft stalled at about three hundred feet elevation, settling back into the swamp on it tail. I have never seen an official report on the incident. My memory is harsh, as I had jokingly commented to A3C Wittle that he would not have time to use the parachute that he was fitting up for himself. reply

Chuck Trout, e-mail, 17.02.2009 00:32 I was standing in my front yard on Travis when the one there crashed in the 60s. I was looking right at it. They were turning final and just fell out of the air. I was a dependent at the time. One of my neighbors said they stalled it--I beleive he said it was a standboard crew. reply

Lt. Col. Joseph Foster, e-mail, 26.12.2008 21:28 I logged 2,000 hours in the C-133A with the 1st ATS at Dover AFB from July 1963-June 1966. The airplne and people I flew with were outstanding. We were at Goose Bay when 62014 crashed on takeoff on 7 November 1964. There was a very very light snow flurry. I alway will believe the props went fixed pitch and the airplane had no thrust. It was not until a C-133 ditched off shore at Okinawa on 30 April 1967 that any C-133 crew members had ever survived. And, that is when the elecrical problems in the propleller governing system were identified. In the 60's it was the World's largest airplane. We flew into 40 different coumtries. Next to my Air Commando flying in Vietnam it was the best flying assignment I ever had. reply

Cal Taylor, e-mail, 09.09.2008 08:05 The last flying C-133 made its final landing on 30 Aug 08, at Travis AFB, CA. Operated in Alaska by Maurice Carlson;s Cargomaster Corp, N199AB /ex-61999 joiined the collection of the Jimmy Doolittle Air & Space Museum. At shutdown, total time was over 18,250 hours with more than 6,100 landings. Partcipating in this event capped my seven years effort to write the definitive hisory of the C-133, entitled "Remembering an Unsung Gian: The Douglas C-133 Cargomaster and Its People." I have 1837 hours as a C-133 navigator with the 84th Miliary Airlift Sq at Travis. reply

Col Robert L Geasland, e-mail, 15.06.2008 14:35 I put in about 4,000 hours as a pilot on C-133's to include a trip around the world in 1963 aboard 62013. I also flew the long range cruise tests out of Edwards. There were two big mistakes made on the bird...the angle of incidence error on the wing made the bird fly with the nose pointing slighty downward in flight. The dangerous one was the fuel control mechanism tied to the prop pitch change mechanism. The pitch change rate was way, way too fast. Gearing disintegrated and Props flew off the bird. This probably accounted for the unexplained loss of a couple. Once that was fixed, we hauled cargo like no other bird in the inventory could...and that included tanks. I know of only one stall...it was out of Goose Bay Labrador when the guys took off with a bunch of ice on the wing. I don't know about the crash at Travis...I was there from 57 to 61, took a tour at the AF Academy and went back to C-133s at Dover. I knew Doug Benefield and others testing the bird for stall characteristics. You had to work to put it into a stall but once there figure several thousand feet to recover...if it didn't flip onto its' back........ reply

Richard Gauntlett, e-mail, 04.06.2008 08:06 When stationed at Travis AFB in the 60's, we had C-133's stationed. We called them Oscar Meyer Wennie wagons due to their shape. They were plaged with problems. I was unfortunate enough to witness the crash of one at Travis. There were no survivors. It was said that they had an issure between indicated and actual airspeed, which caused the crew to think eventhing was fine, when in fact it was flying close to a stall in climb configuration. I know that they grounded them more than once for issues. I met a flight engineer who had transferred back to my C124 SQ who said that more than once in a routine climb the acft entered a full stall and lost several thousand feet of altitude before control was regained. He said that was enough for him. reply

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